Please Correct abtiris from Umadnabi

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Re: Please Correct abtiris from Umadnabi

Postby James Dahl » Tue Aug 23, 2016 7:48 pm

Skips happen, if you compare abtirsi you see skips of even 10 generations or more sometimes between different versions of the same abtirsi.

They had descendants but only one branch survives, so you get these traditions where "had only one son, who had only one son" etc. The truth is that they didn't have only one son, but only one BRANCH still exists, all the other ones went extinct. These ancestors where no clans "meet" at are pointless to remember (since they are not relevant to common descent) and end up getting skipped except by some abtirsi who choose to remember them.

This is why abtirsi is an excellent tool for peering into the distant past but it isn't perfect. With the especially earlier ancestors it's difficult to say when they lived for instance. Did Samaale live 1400 years ago, or are the 9 Samaale the 9 surviving branches, but he lived 2000 years ago and 12-15 generations between each branch gets skipped?
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Re: Please Correct abtiris from Umadnabi

Postby James Dahl » Tue Aug 23, 2016 7:50 pm

To further elaborate, each generation there are maybe 2 or 3 clans that branch off, but I'd bet each of those ancestors had 12 kids or more, but most of the sons lineages have gone extinct for one reason or another.
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Re: Please Correct abtiris from Umadnabi

Postby InaCabdulqaadir » Wed Aug 24, 2016 12:20 pm

You could always just add Koombe to Harti's alternative father and leave everyone satisfied as Hantale Amlale will always bring debate.
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Re: Please Correct abtiris from Umadnabi

Postby InaCabdulqaadir » Wed Aug 24, 2016 1:10 pm

I don't think you've considered the fact that even at 90 they marry and have kids. To prove this my 99 year old grand uncle has a 10 year old son from his youngest wife and an 80+ year old son from his oldest thus he is a great-grandfather whilst his brother hasn't even got one child. Simirlarly this kids youngest grand child may live a lot of generations after the oldest sons oldest granchild which would cause historians to believe that generations are being skipped. This practice would've been more frequent then as we were more rural than we are today. So while it is possible that generations are being skipped it doesn't mean that they ARE being skipped. Also because you rely on oral tradition To determine lineages the more accounts of particular lineages you have the better. I believe that most people will agree with me when I say Harti Koombe Kablalax Daarood.
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Re: Please Correct abtiris from Umadnabi

Postby James Dahl » Wed Aug 24, 2016 5:30 pm

Yeah the children being born range from a father's age of 20 or so all the way to 80, but people didn't live very long in the old days and it all averages out to about 30-35 years. I go with 32 years per generation.
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Re: Please Correct abtiris from Umadnabi

Postby InaCabdulqaadir » Wed Aug 24, 2016 6:06 pm

I've heard that The west was like that but I dont think somalia was. My great-grandfather (he was a nomad) lived to 100+ in The days were you had to walk 3 days and nights to get water. Diseases like cholera and black plague didnt get to us and no one died of cold. Back then The nomads probably haven't heard of a city unless they lived near one.
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Re: Please Correct abtiris from Umadnabi

Postby InaCabdulqaadir » Wed Aug 24, 2016 6:14 pm

We have more diseases now than before. My mother also said that there were plenty of waayeel (really old) people in the past.
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Re: Please Correct abtiris from Umadnabi

Postby InaCabdulqaadir » Thu Aug 25, 2016 5:36 pm

Even back when the Companions of the Prophet were alive people like Abu Sufyaan and Anas ibn Maalik etc reached 120 yrs. So basing things on assumptions is something you should not do.
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Re: Please Correct abtiris from Umadnabi

Postby James Dahl » Fri Aug 26, 2016 7:14 pm

Yeah but it's not all theoretical, there are historical figures in the lineages where we know when they lived. It works out to about 32-35 years per generation. Ironically most people argue for much shorter generations rather than much longer ones haha
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Re: Please Correct abtiris from Umadnabi

Postby InaCabdulqaadir » Sat Aug 27, 2016 4:09 pm

I don't see how a few people who have become historical figures should become everyone elses age limit. Even if it is correct, there still will be people that will live longer or shorter and thus while there is a possibity of a of there being a generation skip between Harti and Koombe it doesn't mean there is. And as I said before it would be prefferable if you added Koombe to Harti's alternative father and thus leaving everyone satisfied.
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