Regarding the time of Abdirahman (Darod) son of Isma'il

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Regarding the time of Abdirahman (Darod) son of Isma'il

Postby Fuadgarase » Thu Nov 01, 2012 7:37 pm

Attention to Mr James Dahl, Concerning the time frame u have mentioned that Abdirahman (Darodd) Al-Arif Billah son of Isma'il lived and died

I totally Disagree that he died on 740, and on 1600 Darod descendents started to claim that they are descendents of Sufi saint Abu-Ma'ruf Jamaludeen Sheikh Isma'il ibn Ibrahim al-Jabarti al-Aqeeli. here are some clues which supports my objection about the above statement:

Sufi saint Abu-Ma'ruf Jamaludeen Sheikh Isma'il ibn Ibrahim al-Jabarti al-Aqeeli born on 1322 (722 Hijri)

Average of generations of each 100 years is 5 generations, so coming from the birth of Sufi saint Sheikh Isma'il ibn Ibrahim al-Jabarti al-Aqeeli which was 1322 (722Hijri) to The time of Ahmed Gurey (Ahmed Gran)his conquest of Ethiopia which was 1543 (949 Hijri)if we put like this 1543-1322 = 221 which is plus and minus about eight generations although it could be less or more shows clearly that Abdirahman (Darod) could not die 740 (122 Hijri).

The reason: Somali clans who played a strong role in Ahmed Gran's conquest of Abyssinia (The book of Futuuhul Habasha), were principally the Habar Magadle Isaaq, the Harti Daarood, and the Mareehaan, these clans went to war not so much as Somalis but as Muslims.
So if you look at it, Harti how many generations it goes from Darod 5 generations so people who are Harti now are Majeerteen , Dhulbahante, warsangeli, Dashiishe and others so if their lineage goes to Harti to another 3 to 5 generations you can not call them on their tribes as they call them today. But they will be called Harti and went to that war as Harti. That exactly shows as they are claiming to be the descendents of Sufi saint Abu-Ma'ruf Jamaludeen Sheikh Isma'il ibn Ibrahim al-Jabarti al-Aqeeli Who is buried in Zabid , Yemen. as the time frame of generation's calculations shows, time of death of Darod you have mentioned 740 8th century who would have probably been born on 7th century and died 740 8th century Wouldn't be possible and couldn't be the ancestor of Harti Who were fighting alongside of Ahmed Gurey (Ahmed Gran) on 1543 16th century as it is impossible within the time frame of nearly 800 years to have maximum 8 generations.

His lineeage is:

Abdirahman (Darodd) Al-Arif Billah bin Isma'il bin Da'ud Bin Abu-Ma'ruf Jamaludeen Sheikh Isma'il bin Ibrahim bin Abdisamad bin Ahmad bin Abdallah bin Ahmad bin Isma'il bin Ibrahim Ibn Abdallah bin Isma'il Ibn Ali-zeynulAabidiin bin Abdallah bin Hamid bin Abdallah bin Irahim Ali-ZeynulAabideen bin Ahmad bin Abdallah bin Muslim bin Abdallah bin Mohamad bin Aqeel bin Abu-Talib Bin Abdi-Mutalib Bin Hashim.
Last edited by Fuadgarase on Sat Nov 10, 2012 12:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Regarding the time of Abdirahman (Darod) son of Isma'il

Postby James Dahl » Sat Nov 03, 2012 6:51 am

There are a number of Daarood who I have the abtirsi of who were alive during the campaigns of Ahmed Guray:

Here for instance was the military commander of the Marehan forces, Hirabu (or Hirabo):
http://www.abtirsi.com/view.php?person=1652

He counts 23 generations to Daarood.

Next here is the sultan who Ahmed Gurey put on the throne, he was a young boy while Hirabu was an old man. Surprizingly, even though Hirabu is Marehan and the ruling dynasty of Adal was Ogaden, two totally different branches of Daarood, the young Sultan is 25 generations, exactly two generations away from Hirabu's generation, so their number of fathers lines up exactly to the generation

http://www.abtirsi.com/view.php?person=883

Next is Maxamuud Saleebaan of the Harti Daarood, the patriarch of the Majerteen kingdoms, who lived shortly before the time of Axmed Gurey, he counts 22 generations to Daarood, again matching up exactly.

http://www.abtirsi.com/view.php?person=836

So really in Axmed Gurey's time, a Daarood counted 23-25 generations to Daarood, not 8. 740 or so is about right.
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Re: Regarding the time of Abdirahman (Darod) son of Isma'il

Postby Fuadgarase » Mon Nov 05, 2012 11:03 am

Mr james,

I am really wondering how you are trying to convince me. But the reality is, you have to have some reference which is logical or a written book reference, for instance you said Hirabu and Mahmood Saleebaan lineage much up, that is totaly irrelevant. If you look at two clans from the same ancestor can reach to their main forefather up to different number of lineage like Reer khalaf Farah shirwa' and Reer Mahad Faarah shirwa'(Both belong to Umar Mahmood branch part of majeerteen) from the same ancestor, but Reer Khalaf reaches to Faarah shirwa' majority of them 5 generations or 6, very rare on 7 when Reer Mahad goes on average 9 some 10, 11 even some 12, so you don't expect all Somali tribes who are related or lived about the same time to have the same number of lineage if I understood you right as that was your point.

Also take a note Mahmood Saleebaan's time wasn't at the time of Ahmad garan(Ahmed Gurey) and if you say so no one would believe it without any hesitation.

My suggestion is you would find some answers if you read certain books instaed of relying on folk talks. I am not saying you shouldn't take folk talks into consideration but I am saying try also to find some other source to support your case. Everyone specially most Somalis know their lineage majority of us and my advise to you is as you are doing a great job here post those thing which you can have any source or a solid folk talk.

Adal dynasty you said they were ogaden, they were Walashma and they are not even Somali read about the books of Walashma dynasty, "A short History of the Argobba" Despite some walashma people claim that they belong to Darod tribe Ogadeen , which is a false claim and not acceptable, as I said before Somali clans know each other very well even the sons of their forefathers they know and walashma are not Somalis.

I am not denying that Argobba people of Walashma dynasty are Arabs from different descendants, even Bani aqeel included who Darod himself claims to be but through Sufi sheikh Ismal'il Jaberti. But Walashma dynasty they were not speaking Kushitic language but Semeitc language (like two semitic languages mixed)and that is also disapproves of walashma dynasty being Darod or even any other Somali clan as Somali's speak kushitic language or Afro=Asiatic languge (Semito-Hamitic language).

1. A short History of the Argobba Page 175 http://www.persee.fr/web/revues/home/pr ... =standard&
Here is what is written in the book:

Northern Argobba
Northern Argobba people are generally referred to as Argobba. However, there is a clan called Doba Shagura among them, and the Doba are those who established the Walashma dynasty. Even though the Shagura are also called Argobba and speak the Argobba language, it is said that they are a mixed people. Doba does not refer to a language, but to a clan within the Argobba. The Argobba in southern Wollo make a distinction within the Argobba on the basis of race and settlement. They distinguish between Argobba Serte and Argobba Wata. They explain that the Argobba Serte are pure Argobba, while the Argobba Wata are
nomadic and mixed with the Oromo and the Afar.

Southern Argobba
These are the Argobba who live around Harar in Fedis and Bisidemo. Although
they all consider themselves Argobba like their northern brothers, they also make an
internal distinction between Adiya and Ala. Ala are mixed with the Oromo. Outside
this, each village carries the name of the village founder, e.g. Yishaq Umardin, Umar
Kule, etc.

Both Northern and Southern Argobba are Semitic speakers and claim that they have the same religious, cultural and historical origin. They are indeed similar. Nevertheless, it is possible to indicate differences in their present language use. Although the language of the Northern Argobba is influenced by Amharic, Oromigna, and Afarigna, we can observe that it is similar and close to Tigrignya and Guragegna. On the other hand, Southern Argobba has been fully absorbed by Oromigna. Nevertheless, on close examination, there are indications that their ancient language was either very close to Amharic or that they were Amharic speakers. Although the language has disappeared now, women and mothers recall lyrics sung at weddings. They say they learnt those poems from their mothers. It can be said that the poems are Amharic. Although it is established that the Argobba in Harar share the same religion and history as the Northern Argobba, they are now Amharic speakers. They explain that the Argobba Serte are pure Argobba, while the Argobba Wata are nomadic and mixed with the Oromo and the Afar.

The other books are 2. "Tradition and Transformation: The Argobba of Ethiopia" Page 41 http://books.google.ca/books?id=plclkFB ... rd&f=false

3. "The Cambridge History of Africa, Volume 3"
Page 140 http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=V7qp ... li&f=false

I hope to believe you if you have a solid proof or reference would you please forward as I can still give you more proof and reference of my case if you require or wish so.


So with all due respect give some consideration on what you are posting , to some people it may be quite offensive when you add other tribes who don't belong to them on their tribe.

Still there is no Darod ancestor who's name is Jeberti please note as well.
Thank you.
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Re: Regarding the time of Abdirahman (Darod) son of Isma'il

Postby James Dahl » Mon Nov 05, 2012 4:51 pm

Fuadgarase,

The abtirsi of the Sultans of Adal I have been given from a descendant of theirs, also the Reer Cumar Wilinwili in the Ogaden are a small clan but they are by no means extinct, and they are the projeny of the Sultans of Adal. That said, if you won't believe other people, then believe your own abtirsi, your abtirsi counts some 37 fathers to Daarood. If Daarood was born only 600 years ago, that is only 16 years between generations, that is simply impossible, Somali generations average 32 years because men marry and have children late into life.

Despite being recognized authorities, many of the more famous western scholars on Somali topics have proven to have dubious information, and I don't trust their works to be authoritative to be honest.
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Re: Regarding the time of Abdirahman (Darod) son of Isma'il

Postby Fuadgarase » Sat Nov 10, 2012 12:01 am

Through all Somalis or Darod or ogaden themselves never saw anybody claiming or thinking or saying the walashma dynasty where Somalians even Ogaden people never say that and regarding this tribe umar wiliwli when I have asked around through my Ogaden relatives they dena the existence of such tribe, so it is a bit strange if anyone writes here or tells you they belong that tribe with such a false statement you should investigate the issue.

What concerns about 40 generation of Darod lineage nothing to deny there are people who has that length in their genealogy but you are forgetting one thing Somalis are not like the rest of the world as a man marries at 20 year if he has a child and keep marrying through his life and he dies at 85 or 90 he may still be married and have children and I can provide you 100 s of proofs about that while he is still alive he maybe be 2nd grand father or 2rd grandfather and Somalis produce more than 5 generation in 100 years.

Through out the years it will be plus and minus figure which depends the age of marriage and how they produce which means evey generation their will differ and today's average of age of marriage no one can say it is the same as it used to be 100s of years ago.

in this century there way two old men who were going from Farah Shirwac(branch of Umar Mahmuud , Majeirteen) as their 2nd real garandfather(I mean 3rd generation) inherited each other and both belong to different tribes of Farah Shirwa' while the rest of their tribes going form Farah Shirwa' from 5, 6, 7, up to 11 generations( which I have his lineage who is Reer Mahad) So how could you explain that when the main grandfathers lived the same time and their descendants' lineage is different.

My advice to you try to know about Somalis more before you come to conclusion.

I will give you example like me Reer hirsi and 2 of my friends from Reer Mahad our forefather mahad and hirsi lived at the same time and mahad was much older he could nearly be the age of hirsi's father when Hirsi has been born.

My friends from Reer Mahad and me here are our genealogy:

1. Burhan, Mahamad(Kamas), Hirsi, Mahmoud(Timayare), Ahmed, Ali, Warsame, Aadan, Mahad Farah Shirwa'(Excluding him he goes up to Farah shirwa' 9 generations)

2. Kaamil, Hassan, Iiro, don't remember the name, Mahmoud(Timayare), Ahmed, Ali, Warsame, Aadan, Mahad Farah Shirwa'(Excluding him he goes up to Farah shirwa' 10 generations)

Note Kaamil has a son who is 19 years old if he was married and had a son it would have gone up to 11 generation although there are others who are like that who go up to 11 generation even I heard 12 generations from Reer Mahad (12 generation never saw or met just heard)

3. (Me) Mohammad-Fuad, Ahmad, Mahamuud(Garase, Hassan, Samatar-Baadi, Elmi, Ahmad, Hirsi, Farah Shirwa'(Excluding me I go up to 8 generations)

So would you please tell me how this could happen taking into account your way of calculation and remember this people lived not that far and the strange thing is Farah Shirwa' time was 150 years ago everything noted.

As what you said whoever told you that Mahmuud Saleebaan was living at the time of Ahmed Gran(Ahmed Gurey) misled you indeed I tried despite knowing it is not true to tell other people who are majeerteen they laughed at me and said it was not that far and it is about 250 to 280 years ago Which could be even less a decade or two from 250 some said.

Believe it or not that how things are about Somalis.
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Re: Regarding the time of Abdirahman (Darod) son of Isma'il

Postby James Dahl » Tue Nov 13, 2012 9:45 pm

It's true that people have varying lengths of their genealogies because men marry late into life, but this is only a problem really back to someone's laf or sub-sub-clan. The more generations, the more a lineage tends to average out to about 32 years per generation, as young generations are offset with old generations.

Also this tendancy for men to have children late in life leads to the opposite problem, it would lead to more generations in an abtirsi stretching further back into history, not closer to our time. If 40 generations means 40 years per generation (all older generations), then Daarood is even further back into history, not 1200-1300 years ago but even further back 1600 years ago, or something like the year 412, hundreds of years before Islam and back into Axumite times. I think we can both agree that's too far back. Chronologically, Daarood must have been one of the first generations of Muslims in Africa.

No matter how you slice it, it's simply chronologically impossible for the Daarood's father to be the same Isma'il ibn Ibrahim who is buried in Zabid. That's not to say Daarood isn't descended from someone named Isma'il, but it's a different Isma'il.
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Re: Regarding the time of Abdirahman (Darod) son of Isma'il

Postby Fuadgarase » Thu Nov 15, 2012 7:17 am

Mr James,


No offence but you are against all the odds, and you seem a man who stuck with his beliefs that is not bad but the problem is when you do contradict yourself and you don't provide a reasonable explanation as well.

Your words:

""Also this tendency for men to have children late in life leads to the opposite problem, it would lead to more generations in an abtirsi stretching further back into history, not closer to our time. If 40 generations means 40 years per generation (all older generations), then Daarood is even further back into history, not 1200-1300 years ago but even further back 1600 years ago, or something like the year 412, hundreds of years before Islam and back into Aksumite times. I think we can both agree that's too far back. Chronologically, Daarood must have been one of the first generations of Muslims in Africa.""

I want to believe you if there was some close or reasonable fact or opinion but other way around you convinced me that your Ideas about whole somali tribes based on baseless imagination not even scientifically reasonable as the generation average for 100 years is 5 generations and you deny that although in 100 years could be more or less but you go on ideas which are ununderstandable and creating forefathers who never existed, for example at least if you have written Darods name as on his grave without any Jaberti would be reasonable forget about disputed ancestor of his. ""

Your words:

""The great scholar Isma'il ibn Ibrahim al-Aqeeli al-Jabarti could not possibly have been Daarood's father, because we know of ruling monarchs descended from Daarood to 22 generations who were his contemporaries, the most notable Daarood alive during the time of Isma'il ibn Ibrahim al-Aqeeli al-Jabarti was Sultan Sabraddin of Adal, who returned to liberate his kingdom from Abyssinian occupation in the year 1422.""

Some one tells you something and you believe without finding out

Your words:

""The abtirsi of the Sultans of Adal I have been given from a descendant of theirs, also the Reer Cumar Wilinwili in the Ogaden are a small clan but they are by no means extinct, and they are the projeny of the Sultans of Adal. That said, if you won't believe other people, then believe your own abtirsi, your abtirsi counts some 37 fathers to Daarood. If Daarood was born only 600 years ago, that is only 16 years between generations, that is simply impossible, Somali generations average 32 years because men marry and have children late into life.""

Such tribe who goes upto 50 or 60 generations doesn't exist through all Darod tribes it is purely fake. You should ask Ogadeen people before writing certain things.

""Despite being recognized authorities, many of the more famous western scholars on Somali topics have proven to have dubious information, and I don't trust their works to be authoritative to be honest.
also as you said about this remember Sabradeen wasn't from ogadeen neither Walashma dynasty were Ogadeen and ass most of Darod go from 30 to 40 generation Ogadeen also are like that if you want proof ask around but just don't take words of those who dont belong to Darod and pretending to be Somalis know each other and as Darood we know each other any Darood who tells you Walashma dynasty are Darood is a fake and any who says they go more than 40 as well is a fake.""

Your words:

""Considering the generations from Aqeel, Darood lived between 890 CE - 950 CE, or about 11 centuries ago. Considering also the average range for a generation of between 24-32 years, I would say that an abtiris to Darood should include 40 generations plus or minus 6, or between 34-46 generations.

This is almost unheard of, as the range I have seen is more in the lines of 30-40 generations.

Either could be the case, though it is perhaps more likely that about 5 generations are missing between Darood and Aqeel than widespread missing generations in abtiris from living people to Darood, other than people with far too few (such as those who count less than 30).

This would however mean that Darood lived more than a century later, or around 1000 CE - 1100 CE.

Considering everything, I consider Darood to have lived about a thousand years ago.""


As all your words contradict each other about the time of Darod, I hope before you write certain thing you need to find out please.

Also is starnge to us when I look into what you wrote above ""This is almost unheard of, as the range I have seen is more in the lines of 30-40 generations""

I wonder and millions of Darod as well when you wrote above is more than 40 generations to Darod and you said is unheard strange are trying to call all Darod descendents are fake unless there are those who go 50 or 60 generations ?. But I am telling you . you will never find those and they don't exist ask anyone one unless some one who is not darod is making it up so please respect our tribe and don't create fake entries .

Please forward those Darod who are more than 40 like 50 or 60 generations than you will find out where they are fake or real or at least you do the research than you will find out anyone on 50 or 60 generations who are Darod is fake.

For the record the was never a person named Jaberti either in Ethiopia Eritrea or Somalia; Jaberti was a nickname for those people used to live in Jabarta city in Eritrea and they belong from different kind of tribes some were Arabs some mixed some Ethiopians

Honestly he could be from anywhere that is not the point, the point is as you putting things in a wrong way like creating a fake forefather and adding a tribe which doesn't belong to Ogadeen by some one's word.

I rest my case as it is hard to debate this issue with you scientifically or logically.

I offering you my apology if any of my words offended you as my intention wasn't that.

Good luck anyway.
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Re: Regarding the time of Abdirahman (Darod) son of Isma'il

Postby James Dahl » Thu Nov 15, 2012 6:32 pm

Dear Fuadgarase,

I meant no offense either, people can disagree and remain friends :D
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Re: Regarding the time of Abdirahman (Darod) son of Isma'il

Postby Fuadgarase » Sat Nov 24, 2012 8:43 pm

Hi Mr James,

:)
I totally agree with you, people can disagree but they don't call each other that you are the son of a non existent ancestor Jeberti which is a nickname. Have your own point of view, that is not the point, but it is not nice and it is an insult to call your ancestor someone who is not or who don't exist, and you can never know someone's ancestor more than them and who belongs to them so there are two things you are not taking into consideration:

1. There is no one by the name Jeberti who is Darod's ancestor, but as is written on his grave is Abdirahman Isma'il Darod which shows Abdirahman was not Darod himself but he was the grandson of Darod, or you can say Darod Isma'il Al-jaberti as it was his ancestry nickname but not an ancestor. As for Some of his descendants some times they call him Darod Isma'il Sometimes Darod Isma'il-Jaberti, thinking Abdirahman was Darod and called him by the name of his grandfather. so let us come to common grounds being reasonable with you despite arguing about my own ancestor, just write what is written on his grave leaving everything else behind like where he comes from and which tribe he belongs to. I have attached picture of his Tomb with his name written on the tomb Al-Arif Bilaah Abdirahman Isma'il Darod, as you can see Abdirahman was not Darod but the grandson of Darod.

I am asking that because no one like to see a false entry on his ancestors so there is No jaberti person but was a family nickname which goes with everyone of that family.

2.Please do not do entryies which does not belong to Darod tribes like Umar Wilinwili lineage , as you said one of his ancestors gave it to you, does that proofs he do belong to them, I don't think so as there is no such clan among Ogadeen as they are my kinsmen and I don't recall among them such a kinsmen by the tribal name Umar Wilinwili neither Ogaden people do that. The only relationship to Walashma dynasty through that era was being Muslims living at one place and the Sultan of Ifat Ahmed Gran and Nur Ibn Mujahid from Darod tribe whome they came under their rule later on.

So anyway I am wondering only why you have to put such entries which doesn't exist while Darod's descendants still alive and know pretty much about their lineage and which tribe belong to them.

So please no ancestor called Jeberti as yourself disagreed Darod Being descendants of Sufi sheikh Isma'il-AlJeberti which we are and believe and you said Darod isn't descendants of Isma'il Jaberti so why you gave us that Jeberti ancestor name and also on his Tomb the name Jeberti never mentioned except words from mouth of his descendants saying that Darod isma'il Jeberti the son of sufi sheikh Isma'il-AlJeberti which is true as Darod was Da'ud the Grand father of Abdirahman who married Donbira Dir and which you disagree just leave the lineage upto Al-Arif Bilaah Abdirahman son of Isma'il son of Darod as written on his grave if you believe he is not descendant of Isma'il Al-Jeberti, Although Some Darod descendants know the complete lineage after Darod.
And no clan called Umar wilinwili who belongs to Ogaden Darod tribe.

I hope you will respect this as you wouldn't like to be called the son of a father who doesn't exist and the brother of a stranger you don't know.

I have seen one of the members by the name of Garboole added Sa'ed Harti as the son of Darod it is bit funny and I was wondering other sons of Darod beside the 5 known sons of Darod where they came from as all Darod people don't have any information of any of them, how then they can be related to Darod people if they don't know their existence.

Thank you.
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Re: Regarding the time of Abdirahman (Darod) son of Isma'il

Postby James Dahl » Sun Nov 25, 2012 11:53 am

Dear Fuadgarase,

Jaberti is not a made up name it is present in many versions of the Daarood abtirsi, it is by no means a settled matter. There are a few versions that even count to Samaale! In recent decades there has been something of a movement to 'correct' many of these versions but this just introduces new errors.

Jaberti in the versions where it appears in the abtirsi appears as the father of Isma'il, the father of Daarood. Those abtirsi who adapt this to the Zabidi scholar then consider Jaberti to be a nickname for Ibrahim (Ibrahim al-Jaberti), but there is no evidence of this, and other abtirsi have different names here.
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