Darood abtiris and historical dating.

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Darood abtiris and historical dating.

Postby James Dahl » Wed Dec 30, 2009 10:02 am

Considering the generations from Aqeel, Darood lived between 890 CE - 950 CE, or about 11 centuries ago. Considering also the average range for a generation of between 24-32 years, I would say that an abtiris to Darood should include 40 generations plus or minus 6, or between 34-46 generations.

This is almost unheard of, as the range I have seen is more in the lines of 30-40 generations.

Either could be the case, though it is perhaps more likely that about 5 generations are missing between Darood and Aqeel than widespread missing generations in abtiris from living people to Darood, other than people with far too few (such as those who count less than 30).

This would however mean that Darood lived more than a century later, or around 1000 CE - 1100 CE.

Considering everything, I consider Darood to have lived about a thousand years ago.
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Re: Darood abtiris and historical dating.

Postby Fuadgarase » Thu Nov 01, 2012 9:53 pm

Hello Mr Dahl,

Abdirahman(Darod) lived was roughly between 600 years and 630 years ago

As we take into consideration of individual lineage every 100 years plus and minus the average is 5 generations, as well not to forget that Somalis are different than majority of the world human reproduction in prospect of marriage and having children. So instead of having 5 generations in 100 years Somalis can have more than that or less than that. You may have heard an old man who has lived for long time time and he was the last son of another old man, who is the great great grandfather of generations who he lives among them. for example: some tribes they have lineage up to Darod 15 or 20 and some upto 40 and some over 30. The most of Darod descendents they are in between 30 and 40 generations from Darod himself although there are some who have lineage less than that or more, take into consideration the Somali way of Human reproduction.

As a Somali You can live at the same time as your 2nd or 3rd grandfather, for example: my grandmother's real uncle who is equivalent to me as my 2nd grandfather, had recently a child who can be my grandson if I and my child had married on our teenage(age of 14, 17 18 etc) time. so that shows Somalis can have within 100 years more than 5-7 generations or less.

Darod's great grand Father Sufi saint Sheikh Isma'il Al-Jabarti Al-Zabidi born on 1322 (722 Hijri) and died on 1403 (806 Hijri). So if Sheikh Isma'il Al-Jabarti born 690 years ago and he is the second grandfather of Abdirahman (Darod), than Darod would have lived around the end of 14th century or the 15th century which makes a lot of sense. Let us try to figure it out this way worldly known average generations in 100 years which is 5 generations in between that period:

Sufi saint Sheikh Isma'il born on 1322
1342 after 20 years he may begot Da'ud Grandfather of Abdirahman(Darod)
1362 Da'ud may begot Isma'il
1382 Isma'il may begot Abdirahman(Darod)
So
Sheikh Isma'il born 1322 and Died on 1403
Da'ud born 1342 (is the one who travelled from Zabid with his followers to Zeyla')
Isma'il born 1362
Abdirahman(Darod) born 1382

At the time of sheikh Isma'il's death 1403 Abdirahman(Darod) was Alive and he may probably had children(Allah knows).

So the time Abdirahman(Darod) lived was roughly between 600 years and 630 years ago

The 9th century Islamic writers Al- Masudi and Yaqub Ibn Abudllah Al-Hamawi wrote in their book Aqeeliyoon in that part of Somalia.

I have attached a file from the pages of the book of genealogist the head of genealogists of Aqiliyoon Sheikh Khatib genealogy investigator Mr. Sharif: Ahmed Bin Ali Al Rajhi Aqili Hashemi Qurashi member Commission for the Promotion of Virtue and Prevention of Vice in Jeddah and a member of the supreme body for genealogy Association Hashemite "Book pearls Sunni Descendents of Al-aqiliyoon" chosen from the history of Jabartis. and he mentioned about the book of sufi saint Sheikh Isma'il's Disciple Which was written abou Da'ud bin Isma'il and his descendents which clearly writes as that book was his source more than anything else, also registered Darod on the board of hashemites tribes one of their tribes.

تاليف : سيادة عمدة النسابين العقيليين الشيخ الخطيب النسابة المحقق السيد الشريف : أحمد بن علي الراجحي العقيلي الهاشمي القرشي عضو هيئة الأمر بالمعروف والنهي عن المنكر بمحافظة جدة و عضو الهيئة العليا لتحقيق
الأنساب بالرابطة الهاشمية" كتاب اللآلىء السنية في الأعقاب العقيلية " المختار من تاريخ الجبرتى
Attachments
last page of ahmed rajhi book about daud ismail.jpg
last page of the book of genealogist the head of genealogists of Aqiliyoon Sheikh Khatib genealogy investigator Mr. Sharif: Ahmed Bin Ali Al Rajhi Aqili Hashemi Qurashi member Commission for the Promotion of Virtue and Prevention of Vice in Jeddah and a member of the supreme body for genealogy Association Hashemite "Book pearls Sunni Descendents of Al-aqiliyoon" chosen from the history of Jabartis. كتاب اللآلىء السنية في الأعقاب العقيلية " المختار من تاريخ الجبرتى" about the jebertis in Lu'i, Zabid and Hadramout, in Yemen which explains the trip of Da'ud bin Isma'il to Zeyla' Land of Majeerteen who were the issa tribe that time as it used to be called that time and majeerteen was the great grand Father of Harti's wife Fadumo Eelaanyo the mother of Mahamed Harti( Majeerteen), Mahmaud Harti(Warsangeli) and Ahmed Harti(Dashiishe)
last page of ahmed rajhi book about daud ismail.jpg (48.44 KiB) Viewed 24210 times
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Re: Darood abtiris and historical dating.

Postby James Dahl » Sat Nov 03, 2012 6:55 am

There is no doubt that the great Sufi scholar of Zabid died in the 15th century, that is beyond doubt and it is indeed recorded in the Aqeeliyun, but I believe some scholar has confused two very different men.

The great scholar Isma'il ibn Ibrahim al-Aqeeli al-Jabarti could not possibly have been Daarood's father, because we know of ruling monarchs descended from Daarood to 22 generations who were his contemporaries, the most notable Daarood alive during the time of Isma'il ibn Ibrahim al-Aqeeli al-Jabarti was Sultan Sabraddin of Adal, who returned to liberate his kingdom from Abyssinian occupation in the year 1422.
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Re: Darood abtiris and historical dating.

Postby Fuadgarase » Thu Nov 15, 2012 7:33 am

Mr James,


No offence but you are against all the odds, and you seem a man who stuck with his beliefs that is not bad but the problem is when you do contradict yourself and you don't provide a reasonable explanation as well.

Your words:

""Also this tendency for men to have children late in life leads to the opposite problem, it would lead to more generations in an abtirsi stretching further back into history, not closer to our time. If 40 generations means 40 years per generation (all older generations), then Daarood is even further back into history, not 1200-1300 years ago but even further back 1600 years ago, or something like the year 412, hundreds of years before Islam and back into Aksumite times. I think we can both agree that's too far back. Chronologically, Daarood must have been one of the first generations of Muslims in Africa.""

I want to believe you if there was some close or reasonable fact or opinion but other way around you convinced me that your Ideas about whole somali tribes based on baseless imagination not even scientifically reasonable as the generation average for 100 years is 5 generations and you deny that although in 100 years could be more or less but you go on ideas which are ununderstandable and creating forefathers who never existed, for example at least if you have written Darods name as on his grave without any Jaberti would be reasonable forget about disputed ancestor of his. ""

Your words:

""The great scholar Isma'il ibn Ibrahim al-Aqeeli al-Jabarti could not possibly have been Daarood's father, because we know of ruling monarchs descended from Daarood to 22 generations who were his contemporaries, the most notable Daarood alive during the time of Isma'il ibn Ibrahim al-Aqeeli al-Jabarti was Sultan Sabraddin of Adal, who returned to liberate his kingdom from Abyssinian occupation in the year 1422.""

Some one tells you something and you believe without finding out

Your words:

""The abtirsi of the Sultans of Adal I have been given from a descendant of theirs, also the Reer Cumar Wilinwili in the Ogaden are a small clan but they are by no means extinct, and they are the projeny of the Sultans of Adal. That said, if you won't believe other people, then believe your own abtirsi, your abtirsi counts some 37 fathers to Daarood. If Daarood was born only 600 years ago, that is only 16 years between generations, that is simply impossible, Somali generations average 32 years because men marry and have children late into life.""

Such tribe who goes upto 50 or 60 generations doesn't exist through all Darod tribes it is purely fake. You should ask Ogadeen people before writing certain things.

""Despite being recognized authorities, many of the more famous western scholars on Somali topics have proven to have dubious information, and I don't trust their works to be authoritative to be honest.
also as you said about this remember Sabradeen wasn't from ogadeen neither Walashma dynasty were Ogadeen and ass most of Darod go from 30 to 40 generation Ogadeen also are like that if you want proof ask around but just don't take words of those who dont belong to Darod and pretending to be Somalis know each other and as Darood we know each other any Darood who tells you Walashma dynasty are Darood is a fake and any who says they go more than 40 as well is a fake.""

Your words:

""Considering the generations from Aqeel, Darood lived between 890 CE - 950 CE, or about 11 centuries ago. Considering also the average range for a generation of between 24-32 years, I would say that an abtiris to Darood should include 40 generations plus or minus 6, or between 34-46 generations.

This is almost unheard of, as the range I have seen is more in the lines of 30-40 generations.

Either could be the case, though it is perhaps more likely that about 5 generations are missing between Darood and Aqeel than widespread missing generations in abtiris from living people to Darood, other than people with far too few (such as those who count less than 30).

This would however mean that Darood lived more than a century later, or around 1000 CE - 1100 CE.

Considering everything, I consider Darood to have lived about a thousand years ago.""


As all your words contradict each other about the time of Darod, I hope before you write certain thing you need to find out please.

Also is starnge to us when I look into what you wrote above ""This is almost unheard of, as the range I have seen is more in the lines of 30-40 generations""

I wonder and millions of Darod as well when you wrote above is more than 40 generations to Darod and you said is unheard strange are trying to call all Darod descendents are fake unless there are those who go 50 or 60 generations ?. But I am telling you . you will never find those and they don't exist ask anyone one unless some one who is not darod is making it up so please respect our tribe and don't create fake entries .

Please forward those Darod who are more than 40 like 50 or 60 generations than you will find out where they are fake or real or at least you do the research than you will find out anyone on 50 or 60 generations who are Darod is fake.

For the record the was never a person named Jaberti either in Ethiopia Eritrea or Somalia; Jaberti was a nickname for those people used to live in Jabarta city in Eritrea and they belong from different kind of tribes some were Arabs some mixed some Ethiopians

Honestly he could be from anywhere that is not the point, the point is as you putting things in a wrong way like creating a fake forefather and adding a tribe which doesn't belong to Ogadeen by some one's word.

I rest my case as it is hard to debate this issue with you scientifically or logically.

I offering you my apology if any of my words offended you as my intention wasn't that.

Good luck anyway.
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Re: Darood abtiris and historical dating.

Postby Bee » Tue Oct 29, 2013 4:02 am

How come it states this thread was started in 2009?
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Re: Darood abtiris and historical dating.

Postby Tribe expert » Mon Jun 12, 2017 1:58 am

James Dahl wrote:There is no doubt that the great Sufi scholar of Zabid died in the 15th century, that is beyond doubt and it is indeed recorded in the Aqeeliyun, but I believe some scholar has confused two very different men.

The great scholar Isma'il ibn Ibrahim al-Aqeeli al-Jabarti could not possibly have been Daarood's father, because we know of ruling monarchs descended from Daarood to 22 generations who were his contemporaries, the most notable Daarood alive during the time of Isma'il ibn Ibrahim al-Aqeeli al-Jabarti was Sultan Sabraddin of Adal, who returned to liberate his kingdom from Abyssinian occupation in the year 1422.

Hello
Mr JamesDahl

As a person who is a Darood, if think you have to fix it up.

My research says Darood came into Somali history 700 years ago. See Arab and Somalis have similar traits in terms of Families, like I could have a 63 year old cousin and a 2 year old Aunt. Same thing for Arabs, even though I am half Arab my self.

Darood begotten four children. These four children could be born in four different times, like one could be born 10 or maybe 20 years after each other. That was very common back then. Now after the industrial revolution we started to have a better birth control. It now common to have 2 children than 19 kids.

Darood gave birth to 4 kids but his kids gave birth to a lot now keep in mind that you said five generations per 100 years.

If his Darood kids, kids gave birth to a lot of KIDS, Ahmed Gurey would have a lot of Darood supporters.

Mr James see your statement is flawed, If Darood was Somali he wouldn't have a tribe right. But see You say Darood is Somali ok, if he was Somali he wouldn't of had a tribe which we don't know because he was not Somali.
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Re: Darood abtiris and historical dating.

Postby bill wajeer » Wed Aug 15, 2018 11:24 pm

i wander how Darood born in 1332 could grow in millions by 1533 considering when Harti Mariixan and Gari clans were taking part in in the battle of fatxul xabash they were described as million fighters
if anyone believes that a century can there be more than 5 generations then tell me are we considering only the first borns as in each son is born at 20 and all fathers reached at the age of 80.
:lol:


Last bumped by bill wajeer on Wed Aug 15, 2018 11:24 pm.
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